Traveller-digest    Wednesday, September 8 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1075



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Roger Sanger?
Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)
r e: meaning of GT (was "Cannons other than...)
Re: Dustbin clarified
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Dustbin
Re: Technology Demographics
RE Dustbin
Re: Dustbin clarified
Re: Merc Equipment
Re: Merc Equipment
Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)
Re: 5FW: 1st Fleet?
Re: Roger Sanger? 
Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!)) 
Re: Merc Equipment/Recruitment
Re: Imperial Military and PR 
Re: Dustbin clarified
Re: Dustbin clarified
Re: Dustbin clarified
Re: Dustbin clarified

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:26:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Roger Sanger?

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> Thus, the
>DGP material sits unused, and unusable (_I_ wouldn't want to get
>into a copyright micturition competition over it), doing _nobody_
>any good.

Except for 2nd hand dealers.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:29:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>To get back to Traveller: The Solomani or Zhodani or Aslan may have had the
>>better soldiers at the Imperiums heyday, but that would not ever have been
>>able to give them more than tactical victories due to the tech/size
>>advantage
>>of the Imperium. Only when the Imperium butchered itself were strategical
>>victories possible ... until an imperial strategic project ( Virus) became
>>the great equalizer.
>
>Probably because the delta in capability between the units wasn't great
>enough to offset the delta in numbers. To link this to an earlier
>thread, see NATO, Warsaw Pact, and first use of tactical nuclear
>weapons.

I've a problem with the Rim War - the Imperium is bigger, but has an
average TL lower than the Solomani (unless someone has crunched the
information down and proved otherwise). The Confederation is pretty uniform
in TL and has a lot of TL14 worlds. Although smaller, surely this gives
them an advantage longer term?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:36:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: r e: meaning of GT (was "Cannons other than...)

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>They used setting assumptions, that mages wouldn't wear armor, that
>Clerics wouldn't use edge weapons, the only theives stable people in
>the back, etc. to balance the rules.  You basically had redo the combat
>numbers from the to-hit tables on up if you wanted to play a character type
>from a new  type of setting, etc.  The only think "generic" is that it
>didn't come with a game world, but many of the world assumptions were
>all there and not optional.  Not, in my book, even close to even "generic
>fantasy".

I see your point... but that was back in the old days when gamers spent all
night up crafting their system to fit the background that their furtive
imaginations had spawned (or stolen from Tolkien/Howard/Moorcock etc). Back
in the days when we had paper chits from the back of the D&D box set to use
as D20s (*) and were proud of the fact ;-)

Dom

* a set of cards A 2-9 J in one suite of black and one of red worked better...

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:38:55 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

At 03:41 PM 08/09/1999, you wrote:
>At 03:19 PM 9/8/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Anyone ever had to do this?  Any advice, observations,
>>suggestions, or experiences?
>
>The best way is to upfront and honest.  Explain cleary why you and the
>group now longer wish to play with this person.  Be firm.  Odds are, he'll
>claim that he'll change.  Trust me, he won't.
>
>I've had to deal with a couple of players who just didn't get the campaign
>theme, it's always difficult to get rid of them.
>-- 
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

        Hi, Doug!
        I agree.  I also suggest that you inform the *other* players first,
and make sure they are willing to say the same thing.  That way you can
honestly tell him it is a group decision and *everyone* is in agreement with
your reasons for canning him.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:36:29 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Dustbin

		Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:54:01 -0400
		From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
		Subject: Re: Dustbin 

		> In a message dated 9/8/99 11:47:23 AM Eastern Daylight
Time, 
		> eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com writes:
		> 
		> << 
		>  Opinions and experiences solicited: I am trimming dead
wood
		>  out of our Traveller group, and I'm wondering if anyone
out
		>  there has ever had to boot a member from their group?
		>  
		>  Rob
		>   >>
		> 
		>     I had to dump a guy from a new AD&D campagin lately.
I used the old 
		> fashioned way,  I lied to him.   I told him we weren't
playing anymore due to 
		> schedule changes.  Now this was different since we were
just starting out and 
		> we only played with this guy once.

		That always works.  <grin>  What worked for one of my old
groups was, after 
		everybody got tired of this one dood was, everybody jumped
him at the 
		beginning of the session and flat out told him they
*refused* to game with 
		him anymore.  After about 2 minutes of screaming at the top
of his lungs at 
		us, he finally stomped out in a rampage when everybody else
ignored him to 
		death.  His character was written out of the group's
history, and the one or 
		2 *right* things he did were later attributed to somebody
else.  <grin>

		Keven
		
		With a slightly different spin...

		I left a gaming group because I just couldn't stand this guy
(who kept making my character the butt of his incredibly stoopid jokes), who
unfortunately by some act of random bastardry that universe throw at us
<shakes fist at star filled sky>, he ended up being the group's leader -
which included in the game us dressing in armoured jackets with his name
emblazoned across them. Man he made me gnash my teeth . . and to top it off,
the GM foiled every 'get back at him' attempt I tried (fair enough, game
wastage and all>. 

		Pant, pant, snarl pant.

		What about you lads/lasses out thar? Anyone in a game
someone that everyone loved save you (who had decidedly opposite feelings).
What did you do, what did you do? I lied, said I had a workshop that clashed
with the gaming night and went my merry way. 

		Recalled memories inducing blie - calm blue ocean, calm blue
ocean.

		- Michael

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:01:36 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Technology Demographics

> 5) Palm-V

I've been thinking 'bout something portable, how do you like your Palm V? Is
there plenty of Traveller software for it? It comes with a basic data base
and word processor, doesn't it? Although those new iBooks sound pretty nice
too. A Powerbook is tempting, but expensive, and probably way overkill. I
just need to take notes, sketch diagrams, etc.

As far as the thread is concerned, I think all you folks are set up just
fine. I am relieved, after seeing the primative POS's some acquaintances
have, I thought maybe I should check and see what my audience might be
using. I am feeling much more optimistic now. I think I can get away with
frames, anyone /not/ frame capable?
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:08:47 -0400
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE Dustbin

>Howdy folks,

>Opinions and experiences solicited: I am trimming dead wood
>out of our Traveller group, and I'm wondering if anyone out
>there has ever had to boot a member from their group?

>Rob

Having been on the receiving end of the boot once, (I was increadibly
obnoxious in my teen years.) I would say the honest approach is the way to
go. Something like, "Look I'm sorry you're just not fitting in..." or
whatever the case may be. If the person in question takes offence, oh well,
he/she/it will get over it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:12:17 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

> I told him that the game is
> suspended; actually, we have more or less finished off the
> current campaign.  We are going to work out aspects of the
> rules and roleplaying in a new campaign, without this other
> guy.

I've only ejected a couple players, and it is a tough job. Nobody likes
being the bad guy, so I advise you do as another poster mentioned: Share the
responsibilty with your other players. And be blunt, or the player may play
the "pity me" game, and that makes it harder. The only other idea I can
think of would be to play a series of games where all the players (in
collaberation) relentlessly pick on the offending player until the
individual quits of his own accord. If he has been annoying enough, you may
enjoy yourself. ;)
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:32:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Merc Equipment

From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Merc Equipment


>A question to the list regarding the equipment of mercenary groups:
>
>I have always assumed that mercs are responsible for the purchase and
>maintainance of their own personal weapons and equipment (gun, armour,
>commo, etc.).  Is this reasonable?  What about mercs who opperate more
>expensive equipment such as a plasma support weapon or MRL?  Artillery?
>AFV's?  I cannot imagine individual soldiers paying for a grav tank, but a
>HMG might be reasonable.  Perhaps the group has a "lay-away" plan so that a
>merc can pay in installments.  What about ammunition?  Spares?  Repairs?
>Any constructive comments would be welcome.


    I have always run it that the unit pays for your equipment, otherwise
you would have a resupply nightmare, as on merc may have a 5.56mm Assault
Rifle, one has a 7mm, one has a 7.62mm, one has a 7.65, one has a 9mm, & one
has a 10mm.  If the unit uses a standard weapon like the 5.56 or 7.62mm
Assault Rifle, then logistics is simplified.
    And, as a Merc Unit is a freelance military unit, they tend to want to
look military for prospective employers.  And, you cannot look military if
everyone has different equipment, nor can you plan for a long campaign, or
let alone a long battle.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:32:27 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Merc Equipment

From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Merc Equipment


>A question to the list regarding the equipment of mercenary groups:
>
>I have always assumed that mercs are responsible for the purchase and
>maintainance of their own personal weapons and equipment (gun, armour,
>commo, etc.).  Is this reasonable?  What about mercs who opperate more
>expensive equipment such as a plasma support weapon or MRL?  Artillery?
>AFV's?  I cannot imagine individual soldiers paying for a grav tank, but a
>HMG might be reasonable.  Perhaps the group has a "lay-away" plan so that a
>merc can pay in installments.  What about ammunition?  Spares?  Repairs?
>Any constructive comments would be welcome.


    I have always run it that the unit pays for your equipment, otherwise
you would have a resupply nightmare, as on merc may have a 5.56mm Assault
Rifle, one has a 7mm, one has a 7.62mm, one has a 7.65, one has a 9mm, & one
has a 10mm.  If the unit uses a standard weapon like the 5.56 or 7.62mm
Assault Rifle, then logistics is simplified.
    And, as a Merc Unit is a freelance military unit, they tend to want to
look military for prospective employers.  And, you cannot look military if
everyone has different equipment, nor can you plan for a long campaign, or
let alone a long battle.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:03:44 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > The Germans were tactical victors at Jutland? Being chased from the
> > field; losing one battleship outright and having a modern BC flood so
> > badly that it couldn't make harbour is wining? The Grand Fleet reported
> > that it was at 24 hours notice for sea after Jutland. The High Seas
> > Fleet couldn't sortie for months. Your point would probably be better
> > made by looking at RN losses - higher than the Germans, in terms of both
> > ships and men. But which fleet then stayed in port until 1918 and then
> > mutinied rather than sortie again?
> >
> >Ever heard about the difference between strategy and tactics?
> 
> Jutland - tactical victory for the RN - the enemy fleet fled the area,
> returning to a friendly port.

OTOH, according to Keegan [_The Price of Admiralty_, page 136], Admiral
Scheer's objective was to inflict losses on the Grand Fleet.  He
succeeded in sinking more enemy "Dreadnought-type" capital ships
(INVINCIBLE, INDEFATIGABLE, and QUEEN MARY) than he lost (LUTZOW).  In
other words, the High Seas Fleet's mission was to sortie, kill enemy
capital ships, and return home.  Which they did.  It was in that sense
(plus, of course, the fact that Germany lost far fewer sailors than did
Britain) that I referred to Jutland as a German tactical victory.
> 
> Jutland -strategic victory for the RN - the enemy fleet was no longer
> disposed for further combat operations.

No argument here.

Your other points were well made, and you're right that my original
point would have been clearer had I phrased as you did.

Anyway, it could be worse; I could be arguing that the Spanish sould and
should retake Gibraltar!  (For the uninitiated:  This discussion went on
for quite some time, generating much more heat than light, on
sci.military.naval.)

ObTrav:  Over a century after the end of the Solomani Rim War, I expect
that military theorists still debate, with much vigor, the wisdom of
invading Terra.  
<<snip>>


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:35:48 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: 5FW: 1st Fleet?

Clifford N Linehan writes:

>Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:47:26 -0600 From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
>>My PCs are currently on Dinom/Lanth, at the beginning of the Fifth
>>Frontier War. I was looking at the game 5FW, and noticed that the fleet
>>disposition maps have the Dinom region covered by a fleet numbered simply
>>"1".
>>
>>Does anyone know what fleet this is? I can't find references to it in
>>the text of the game.
> 
>Year: 1116

There was a reorganisation of the regular fleets following the 5th Frontier
War, so the location of a fleet in 1116 does not say much about where it
was in 1107.

>Sector: Spinward Marches
>Sub-Sector: G: Lanth
>Fleet: 018th
>Reserve Fleet: 1018th

Because the regular fleets gets shuffled around once in a while while the
subsector fleets stays put, it is quite unlikely that any subsector fleet
should have a number that corresponds to the regular fleet stationed in its
subsector. It's not impossible, of course, just quite a coincidence. What
evidence do you have that the Lanth subsector fleet is #1018?

Qnd Erwin Fritz writes:

>Thanks. I wonder why the author didn't just put '18' there.
 
Propably because the 18th was stationed somewhere else at the time.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:28:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Roger Sanger? 

> of both was IMO significantly inferior to what DGP put out, and
> there is little if any present interest in it.  The DGP material
> - the absolute best non-GDW stuff from the GDW era - is not
> available, essentially because R***r S****r <spit> won't
> re-release it (and if he said he was going to, nobody would
> believe him; he's failed to follow through on similar projects
> before), and the implication of statements made here was that he
> expected anyone that wanted to take on the job of re-releasing it
> to make him independently wealthy for the privilege.  Thus, the
> DGP material sits unused, and unusable (_I_ wouldn't want to get
> into a copyright micturition competition over it), doing _nobody_
> any good.

Well, I'm not gonna get into a p***ing contest here, but I have a lot of the 
old FASA stuff (the FCI Consumer's Guide, all 3 parts of the Sky Raiders 
Trilogy, the Uryagen of the 7 Pillars, and Rescue on Galatea), and I consider 
them to be among the *BEST* CT supplements around.  But then, YMMV.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:45:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: UpPorts (was AKUS MOBY Update (was Ship Damage...Oh my!)) 

> Okay!  Okay!  Thank you, everyone that posted to me, and thanks for
> cheering me up too.  

Don't worry, Eris.  Things just get crazier from here on out.
 
> I was feeling down yesterday when I posted.  One of my excellent
> players had just withdrawn from the AKUS PBEM, I'm just about
> certain another who is currently AWOL won't be back, and to top it
> all off two others are on vacation! <grrr> 

One of our 'Lost Geese' stuck his head up, so things are looking up a bit.

OTOT, things have been kinda screwed up for me here lately.  Damned back's been acting up a LOT lately.  I can spend only maybe 10 minutes at a time every couple hours at the computer before I almost pass out from the pain.  This is *not good*.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:02:41 -0700
From: "Tom" <tbergman@brawleyonline.com>
Subject: Re: Merc Equipment/Recruitment

"Daniel Phelps"  wrote:

> For certain situations where lower tech will do I see official government
> relationships akin to the Gerka (sp) Regiments of the 19th, 20th and dare
I
> say 21st century British army.   Say "Wild Woofer Regiments" recruited
from
> just over the fringe.  Perhaps at higher tech the French Foreign Legion
> really could be a good model.   You've read the novels, Hammer's Slammers
> etc. most of the equipment belongs to the unit and if I remember correctly
> everyone gets paid in shares depending on their responsibilities.  A
> non-military model of such would be how profits were historically divided
> from whaling voyages.  Just my two credits worth for what it is indeed
> worth.
>
> Dan
>

IIRC individual Royal Navy vessels during the 18th-19th Cent. would "sell"
captured enemy ships and split the prize money among the officers and crew.
The amount of each "share" depended on rank and position within the crew
with the Captain receiving the largest amount.  For the time, even a lowly
apprentice seaman could do well with his share of several captured ships.
Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?

ObTrav:  Would the officer's and crews of Patrol Cruisers and SDB's get
"prize money" for captured pirate vessels?

Oriontwin
orion 0609 C36AA84-A hi- va+ vi+ so++ A633
tc+ tm+ tn t4+ tg-- ru+ he+ 3i!(+) c+ jt- st++ pi+ ta ge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:12:44 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military and PR 

>> There are two more lines, but I'll stop here because the next line
>> includes a word that is by contemporary standards a rather nasty
>> ethnic epithet...
>
>What, you're afraid to say 'wanker' in an international list?  <grin>

Oh, heck, no. "Wanker" isn't an ethnic-based term -- at least, not
in this part of the world. But I'm curious, if "wanker" appears in
the version you know, then it's a completely different version than
the one I know...

And there was also a Davy Crockett series, which may also have had
some parody lyrics associated with it...

Which brings to mind the idea of Traveller filk songs... like Home
On LaGrange... :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:22:38 -7
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <stoo.dollar@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

On 8 Sep 99, at 15:41, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 03:19 PM 9/8/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Anyone ever had to do this?  Any advice, observations,
> >suggestions, or experiences?
> 
> The best way is to upfront and honest.  Explain cleary why you and the
> group now longer wish to play with this person.  Be firm.  Odds are, he'll
> claim that he'll change.  Trust me, he won't.
> 
> I've had to deal with a couple of players who just didn't get the campaign
> theme, it's always difficult to get rid of them.

I have to concur with Doug.  Better to be honest with them, 
especially when you have to deal face to face with them on a daily 
basis.

The irony of it is if you search the person out, a lot of times you will 
discover they weren't having that much fun anyways.  At least, 
that's been the case the couple of times I've had to deal with it.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar    stoo.dollar@worldnet.att.net
Frustrated Novelist, Published Game Designer
- --------------------------------------------------
"Now everybody line up alphabetically, according to your
height." -Casey Stengel
Visit Stoo's Wee Spot of a Web Page:
http://home.att.net/~stoo.dollar/index.html
or Down Prometheus Spaceport
http://home.att.net/~stoo.dollar/trav/trav.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:20:42 +1200
From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

On 8 Sep 99, at 15:19, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Howdy all,
> 
> Here's a clarification.  One member is a competetive pain in
> the patookus.  His role playing skills are zero, and his idea
> of an enjoyable evening is finding a weak spot in the referee's
> game rules knowledge and exploiting it to do what he wants.
> To top it all off, he doesn't admit any dissatisfaction about the
> game rules or game play.  The group won't survive long while
> this continues, and the others agree with me; so out he goes.
> 
> This is a face-to-face group.  I told him that the game is
> suspended; actually, we have more or less finished off the
> current campaign.  We are going to work out aspects of the
> rules and roleplaying in a new campaign, without this other
> guy.
> 
> Anyone ever had to do this?  Any advice, observations,
> suggestions, or experiences?

I've had the misfortune to have both played and GMed in this sort of 
environment several times. One game broke up because the GM 
couldn't (for out of game reasons) do anything about it. In another I 
solved the problem by ending the campaign early and strating 
another with a system that he didn't like, but everyone else did (or at 
least said they did). This encouraged him to go elsewhere.




- --
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:20:43 +1200
From: rboleyn@paradise.net.nz
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

On 8 Sep 99, at 14:26, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Urk. IME this kind of player has to be told point-blank "We don't want
> to play with you anymore. It's not fun, and everyone feels this way."
> and _everyone_ has to say that. Sort of an intervention, though more of
> an _out_ervention
> 
> Unfortunately this leads to other problems if you have to deal with the
> person IRL, because if they're that immature at game playing, they're
> usually as immature IRL.

Yep. I an AD&D game I was in we had a player who had a Mage-
Thief who used to just lurk at the back, saving all his spells 'just in 
case' and shooting into melee, etc. The whole group wanted to get 
rid of him, even those who were his friends, but the GM wouldn't do it 
himself, or let us do anything because he was in business with the 
guy and he was (justifably) afraid of the repercussions.


- --
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz>
Wellington, New Zealand

A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:23:23 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Dustbin clarified

>Here's a clarification.  One member is a competetive pain in
>the patookus.  His role playing skills are zero, and his idea
>of an enjoyable evening is finding a weak spot in the referee's
>game rules knowledge and exploiting it to do what he wants.
>To top it all off, he doesn't admit any dissatisfaction about the
>game rules or game play.  The group won't survive long while
>this continues, and the others agree with me; so out he goes.
>
>This is a face-to-face group.  I told him that the game is
>suspended; actually, we have more or less finished off the
>current campaign.  We are going to work out aspects of the
>rules and roleplaying in a new campaign, without this other
>guy.
>
>Anyone ever had to do this?  Any advice, observations,
>suggestions, or experiences?

I've had to lie once or twice to someone who wanted to invite himself
into a game I was starting, someone I definitely did not want to have
present, by telling him that I had no room for any other players...
This same person, several years ago I got to leave a superhero RPG
game I was running by putting it on hiatus for several weeks -- then,
when restarting, switching rule systems to a system that he absolutely
despised, so he would exclude himself. It worked.

There was another time where we wound up with one of the worst types of
Munchkin players in the group, who we all got to despise. He didn't take
the hint that he wasn't liked by the others, so the GM told him point 
blank that he was no longer welcome. The following week, he showed up for
the game anyway.

So we plotted a course of action for the next week: we would start an hour
later, and not tell him. The game was at my place (though I was not the
game's GM). He showed up at the usual time and found me alone at home
watching TV. I told him there was no game anymore. He stood there confused
for a moment, then left. We never saw him again...

As far as advice goes, though -- sometimes you have to take the bull
by the horns and be direct. If you and the others find his presence
annoying and don't want him in the game anymore, just tell him that.

Hope this helps. (Let us know how it turns out.)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1075
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